Video: Should nursing be an all graduate profession?

Readers' comments (19)

• Carol Ellison | 20-Nov-2009 10:19 pm

  I do not think for one minute that anyone needs to have a university degree to be a good nurse, In fact I think working towards a degree gets in the way of learning the 'art' of nursing' sometimes, which is certainly not about writing essays well.
  However, to attract young people into the profession we have to offer them the same level of study as their friends and class mates, therefore we must offer them a degree level qualification. A large percentage of young people go to university just to get a degree, and often study a subject they have no intention of ever making use of. Student nurses will be studying and working and therefore must be offered generous financial incentives to ensure that those who are interested can apply. With increased financial security offered there should be no shortage of suitable candidates. However choosing the best should not be about grades as much as personality; are they kind, thoughtful and compassionate as well as being intelligent, intuitive and willing to work hard? Are they aware of what may be expected of them? If the answer is YES to all these questions, then perhaps we will truly have found the nurse of he future.

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  Sandra Joyce Powell | 22-Nov-2009 11:01 am

  Good morning
  
  I agree with the lady who said a degree
  
  does not make a nurse,
  
  Insisting that nurses have degrees will totality,stop real nurses ,people who are empathetic from applying for the position of nurse,. There are people who want to be a nurse excluded from the profession just because they have not got the ability
  to look at a situation and critically analyse it using BEST PRACTISE before performing any act of nursing .
  
  They are unable to be modern day Florence Nightingales why?
  
  I will give you the answer,
  
  Today's nurse .has to have the ability to
  
  critically analyse a situation and before
  
  they perform any act of nursing they have to think, Is this best practise ,am i doing the right thing ,for every task at ward level,
  I absolutly disagree with this, nursing is in a persons. blood,just because a person has not got the ability to produce a degree level paper , They are excluded from the profession, This is discrimination,
  This world is so confused in the 70s we had two levels of nurses, one level qualified to become the sister on the ward and the other one became the Enrolled Nurse
  
  The enrolled nurse took orders from the sister and they performed all the ward level
  
  tasks,this was a very workable situation.
  
  I myself feel that the degree level nurse has to perform some of the tasks of a junior doctor and purely for this reason they have to be trained at degree level.
  
  I say bring back the enrolled nurse. and do it now.

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• Anonymous | 22-Nov-2009 11:34 am

  I completed the three year diploma course in february and am currently practicing on a trauma orthopedic ward. The only difference between my diploma course and the degree course at the university I was studying with is the fact in your last semester you have to write a dissertation as a degree student and you have to write 500 more words on academic assignments than the diploma students throughout the course. I feel by doing this does not make people better nurses and totally disagree with degree only programme. This will totally disadvantage good nurses. Why do you need to write a dissertation and have a degree to be a good nurse? Arn't exams important anymore? And please note, as a diploma student I undertook the same exams as the degree student, the only difference was I did not write a dissertation and had a few less words on essays!!! I think the government have got it all wrong on this one!!!

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• Luke Carter | 22-Nov-2009 11:42 am

  Can we not have the best of both worlds?
  
  As a student mental health nurse, I love working with clients and (perversly, may be) find the academic work highly enjoyable.
  
  Challenges abound within nursing and essay writing is just another of these. I reject the opinion that degree only level nursing will exclude good nurses as nursing is deeply involved in self improvement. The level of pride that nurses feel when they achieve their degree will change the psychology of the whole profession.
  
  Nursing is distinct from medicine and up to this point nursing has not been truly at the helm of own specialty. The new rule can only help to rectify that situation.
  
  Nursing education could also be augmented by a short "preparation for nurse training" course which could take one of many forms.
  
  Rather than limit the entry of "good" nurses we will need to support those who struggle to reach their true potentials. Investment in student nurses by both clinical mentors and academic staff is paramount in raising the bar and dragging the profession into line with other health care providers.

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• Penny McDougall | 22-Nov-2009 12:35 pm

  It is very sad that the NMC & Universities felt it necessary to 'validate' nurse training by insisting that all new nurses should have degrees. In a time of diminishing work force, how many excellent potential carers will we lose because they can't achieve a full degree?
  Ironically we employ more untrained support workers and nursery nurses to fill the unfilled nursing vacancies, and rely on them to take on increasingly complex tasks that never would have been delegated before.
  Are we reintroducing two tier nursing by default?
  

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• nell laing | 22-Nov-2009 1:51 pm

  Absolutely not. It is the proliferation of degree nurses who have ruined the practical nurse. It is time we got back to teaching the basics by skilled, experienced nurses who know what they are doing. Unfortunately this will take some time as those with the necessary knowledge and skills are a dying breed......literally. It is fine to know how to analyse and synthesise but we still need capable practical nurses who know the correct way to insert a continence pad or a naso gastric tube or listen to someone with dementia. I have had trained nurses come to their first ward without any of these skills and they are expected to be trained by ward charge nurses who do not have them either. Bring back the ward based teachers and eventually we will get staff with the appropriate skills to be 'old matron' types who are not frightened of being disliked and are not looking for promotion.

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• duncan anderson | 22-Nov-2009 2:00 pm

  As one of the first wave of P2K students I am aware of the negative attitudes the last generation can have to a new form of training, I spent three years fighting that stereo type so I would not want to stop those who wish to or have time to do a degree but at the same time we should not exclude those who may not have the apptitude to take that path but may be an excellent nurse who is proficient in the delivery of high quality care, this extends to non qualified staff, my wife you is a bloody good support worker would now not be able to enter the service without jumping through hoops, despite the protestations about a more technical role I can't see much change in the fundamentals of nursing over the last 18 yrs and also are the graduate only nurses going to accept the rates of pay that will remain less than those of graduates else where, having seen the quality of the medical trainees that are coming through now and lack of practical knowledge they have one worries about the future, not everything in our job fits a protocol or a set of easy steps, we deal with humans not statistics who come in a grey area in the middle

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• Anonymous | 22-Nov-2009 2:56 pm

  I agree with everything that you are saying that having a degree does not make a good nurse but unfortunately we are in a time of accountability to the public and by having a university degree in Nursing is looked upon as a having more status and credibility with colleagues and the public.
  Entry to practice Nursing in Ontario, Canada had changed to university degree for new nurses several years ago. I was a diploma trained nurse (graduated in 1982) who went back to university and got my Post RN BScN degree 3 years ago.
  Now that I have my degree I don't feel that I am a better nurse. I believe that I was always a good nurse but a degree has given me more opportunities and has taught me to think critically. Writing papers taught me to examine my way of thinking and question things.
  Acceptance of a university degree for entry to practice for nurses is a fact of life now where I practice and some of the experienced nurses have gone back to school part time to obtain their degrees as it opens up more doors for them in their nursing careers. They didn't have to do this but chose to.
  I believe now that having a Nursing degree for entry nurses is a very good thing for accountability for our profession.

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• Anonymous | 22-Nov-2009 4:00 pm

  Difficult to say there lots of very good very intelligent nurses out there who do not have degrees but can diagnose and analyse patients care etc better thansom junor doctors. And there are nurses with degrees who are completely useless as nurses. Maybe all nurse training from now on should be a degree course do away with the diploma. When I did my training the only difference betwen me and a student doing a degree was they did an additional dissertation on the course but we followed the same program produce the same essays etc. What about people who come into nursing with a degree in a different disciplne I was one of those students who had a degree but wanted a career in nursing. However whether nursing becomes only a degree course or not the problem we need to weed out the potentialy bad nurses.

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• Anonymous | 22-Nov-2009 4:41 pm

  This argument has been going on for many years. A degree tell us the nurse is academic and can write assignements. It does not necessarily develop the vocation and empathy that is essential for good pateint care, on whatever field the nurse is in. We do have a two tier system - nurses filling in masses of paperwork, and the HCA who is doing the hands on care. The SEN in all but respect

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• Anonymous | 22-Nov-2009 8:56 pm

  I am 59 years of age and have just completed a degree in health studies part paid for by myself and part by my employer.
  I do not think that you need a degree to be a good nurse but have found rhe modules I have studied at he5 and he6 have help in some way to understand the concepts of nursing. I think to being a good nurse you need to want to nurse, not everybody can do it.
  Bring back the SEN instead of degree nurses let nurses nurse.

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• Anonymous | 22-Nov-2009 10:20 pm

  although having a degree will highlight the professional manner of nursing, many potentially good bedside nurses will be lost to the profession. Already many student nurses are reluctant to perform 'basic nursing care'. I agree that the enrolled nurse programme should be reintroduced, allowing those who wish to choose a less academic path to provide the good quality care patients deserve, which sadly deserts many nurses today.

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• Anonymous | 23-Nov-2009 0:11 am

  I have been nursing for 22 years, originally training as an RGN certificate, and working in my specialist area for the last 17 years, 4 yrs of which were in Australia. My most recent post was a Band 8a Lead nurse role. I have many specialist courses and the equivalent of the RGN diploma. As many of you have said this argument has been discussed for many years, but what hasn't been mentioned as frequently is the unhealthy competitiveness and infighting that has resulted from many levels of nurse training available over the years(EN, RGN cert, RGN dip, RGN degree).
  
  Nursing should ultimately be recognised as a profession resulting in one qualification. This will eliminate confusion from others outside of our profession and hopefully unite us to achieve the one goal, a valued and recognised nursing qualification.
  
  In Australia the nurses have been 'degree only' for years and there is a pride in their profession which is partly manifest through their decent salary and status in society. Their training in both theory and practical is excellent and prepares them well for the realities of ward work; coordinating multidisciplinary care and leading on decision making in patient care; and also how to externally represent the profession through, for example, public speaking. I developed from ward nurse to specialist nurse whilst out in Australia so had the opportunity to see this in many grades/areas of nursing.
  
  A degree only profession will eliminate arguments which ensue following applications for posts which contest university nurse against highly experienced nurse, both of which have valid qualifications. As a certificate RGN, I have often been frustrated by the unfriendly way P2K were received in the early 1990's and the ongoing division amongst nurses regarding the level of training required.
  
  I do not wish to compete for a post based on whether I am a certificate, diploma or degree nurse, but rather based on what experience and training I have completed in the relevant specialist area post qualification.
  
  Ultimately to be recognised and respected as being equal to other health care professionals(Dieticians, physiotherapists) and other highly respected professions (teaching) we need to move to a degree only training. This will, in time, allow potential employers to concentrate on other qualities on an application for a post rather than the ongoing arguments around level of RGN needed.
  
  Nursing is becoming more specialised, professional and highly accountable with, for example, the introduction of nurse prescribing, nurse specialists and nurse consultant roles. These posts require a degree level of nurse training to be truly acknowledged and valued by others, and also, more importantly to ensure we are recruiting the right calibre of person who will continue to develop the nursing role in the future.

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  Mertha Nyamande RMN | 23-Nov-2009 4:10 pm

  All a nurse needs is a good heart, life experience, maturity and a genuire regard for others not a degree. But unfortunately, like anything else these days, everything is political and things have to look good, even if nothing good comes out of it.

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• Patricia Devane | 23-Nov-2009 7:59 pm

  While it is interesting that Anonymous finds the all degree nursing in Oz a very positive model, I just have grave reservations that it can work here. Forgive me for not knowing the figures but in the UK we have a faiirly large shortfall of nurses. I could be wrong but it is my understanding that pay and conditions in Oz may be more favourable (the weather certailny is!). My question to you would be does the profession there have the recruitment problems it does here? We have been taking qualified nurses from poorer conntries for some time now and if you have any contact with children approaching leaving senior school you find that nursing is not an attractive option for them. I think the profession can survive with graduate only qualification, but I think in 25 years the proportion of care delivered by qualified nurses will be much less. Perhaps we will be in a better position to negotiate pay and conditions? But you wonder if it's all sustainable with such a model?

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• monique blair | 25-Nov-2009 0:06 am

  I obtained my BSc Hons in Adult Nursing as a mature student in 2006 - having the degree has made no difference to my status in employment, opportunities or salary - yes the role of registered nurses is changing and a percentage of qualifying nurses will need the academic knowledge to achieve these changes. However, we must never forget the patients and their hands on care - do we all need the academia ??

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• Anonymous | 25-Nov-2009 12:30 pm

  Whatever they decide, we will follow. When P2k was introduced ,we had lots of anxieties and fears. Look at the situation today, not too bad or is it?. The main problem I forsee might be a recruitment problem due to our pay and conditions. Otherwise within a short time those clever nurses with a degree (including ourselves after the conversion) will adapt to their new environment and learn within their preceptorship and with experience. Any beginning is difficult but ways of improving is always around the corner. Bring it on as we might be able to use this opportunity to improve our pay and conditions in line with other degree holders.

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• Anonymous | 25-Nov-2009 12:42 pm

  Qualities for a good nurse such as empathy ,etc...are independent of qualifications. i.e degree and diploma nurses alike may not have it!

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• Anonymous | 25-Nov-2009 12:59 pm

  According to anonymous 22nov, all you need to do to have a degree from a diploma is 500 more words on academic assignments and a dissertation. Surely there is nothing to worry about? Hopefully this criteria will be maintained for the conversion course? and may be a choice to do it without too harsh financial penalties for those who opt out?

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